I recently posted some info about some places that regularly stock Traynors - they all do mailorder if you are willing to buy sight-unseen. Unfortunately, they know the value of what they sell and there are no bargains to be had. I recently paid $395 for a Custom Special from Songbird Toronto. Pawn shops etc can have much better prices - but you have to do much more searching. I am still hoping to find a $50 Super Custom Special!
In Toronto and Ottawa you can check out http://www.songbirdmusic.com/ I have bought Traynors from both locations - most recently a Custom Special from the Toronto store for $395 CDN - not a bargain.
Toronto 801 Queen Street West Toronto Ontario M6J 1G1 Phone 888.733.4777 416.504.7664
Ottawa 388 Gladstone Avenue Ottawa Ontario K2P 0Z1 Phone 888.733.4999 613.594.5323
The ancestral home of Traynor is Long & McQuade. They are now a large chain - I have no idea if they actually have any used Traynors, but they do sell used equipment.
http://www.long-mcquade.com/
The downtown Toronto store is at:
Long & McQuade Musical Instruments 925 Bloor St. W. Toronto, Ontario M6H 1L5 Tel: (416) 588-7886 Fax: (416) 532-9708 E-mail: bloor@long-mcquade.com
My favourite place to buy Traynors is a small grubby store in Ottawa called Used Sound:
USED SOUND 226 PRESTON OTTAWA, ON K1R 7R2 (613) 594-5449
It is often crowded and it is stuffed with old equipment - but occasionally there are bargains. (It is only about a five minute drive from the Ottawa Songbird Music.)
I got a swamprobe, a tube socket inserted device probably identical to the Biasprobe, does the current draw technique for bias measurement. Anyway, plugging it in I could only get a 0 reading on the multimeter even though the amp worked fine. I
Question 1: My '69 YSR-1 looks like its been modded at some point. When I got it, the reverb pan was absent and one of the filter caps had the terminals bent together with all the wires soldered to the pair of terminals in one big glump. Can anyone tell me why someone did this and what I can expect sound-wise if I undo it and bring it back like on the schematic?
Q2: My caps are 20yrs old and need replacing anyway. The ones in there are Mallory's-450VDC, 40mFs. Any advice on what kind of replacements to buy? What are the pros and cons (other than cooking my beloved amp) of experimenting with caps with different values? In the immortal words of Sgt. Schultz "I know nothing!"
Q3: The schematic calls for the 6 preamp tubes to be 12AX7As. I've got 3 each of AX7s and AX7As. What's the difference anyway?
Thanks in advance.
Dave
I have never used the Swamprobe or bias probe, but as far as I know, Traynors are quite conventional to bias. You can simply measure the voltages, but I like the technique of installing a 1 ohm or 10 ohm resistor between the cathode and ground for each tube and calculate the current from the voltage across it, as recommended by Kevin O'Connor. Of course, because of the high plate voltages you will want to use less bias current than normal for lower voltage models.
>Q2: My caps are 20yrs old and need replacing anyway. The ones in there are Mallory's-450VDC, 40mFs. Any advice on what kind of replacements to buy? What are the pros and cons (other than cooking my beloved amp) of experimenting with caps with different values?
I like to leave the originals in for cosmetic purposes, but disconnect them. (I am assuming you have chassis mounted cans - exact replacements are available but are VERY expensive). Modern electrolytics are much smaller, you can mount them inside the chassis - but avoid hot spots. Surplus caps are very cheap - for example, try
>Q3: The schematic calls for the 6 preamp tubes to be 12AX7As. I've got 3 each of AX7s and AX7As. What's the difference anyway?
In the good old days, a 12AX7A was an improved 12AX7. Nowadays, it only depends on what label is convenient - there are many other numbers used for the same generic tube type, such as 7025. Put your lowest noise, least microphonic tubes at the input, where they will do the most good.
>My speaker is >dated Nov. '72 and the Ss# is 2110133, how can I tell the date from this?
The serial number (first digit = final digit of year, second and third digit = month) suggests November 72. I have one Traynor that passed final inspection in the month following the one indicated in the serial number, which suggests that serial numbers are assigned during production, rather than on completion.
What are the yellow square .1 coupling caps caps in traynors whose make ???Bill
Are there sources for vintage caps in UK or Canada ???? Bill
>Q2: My caps are 20yrs old and need replacing anyway. The ones in there are Mallory's-450VDC, 40mFs. Any advice on what kind of replacements to buy? What are the pros and cons (other than cooking my beloved amp) of experimenting with caps with different values? In the immortal words of Sgt. Schultz "I know nothing!"
I put LCR 50x50x500v caps in my YSR-1. They are only about $14 each but require you to drill a small hole in the chassis for the bracket that holds them. I had a hell of time getting the old Mallorys out. No way I could melt that solder. Had to cut the tabs with a Dremel. I could care less about how the amp looks from the back. In fact, I think the blue LCRs look kinda cool.
Lee
Ditto on the LCR cans, this is what is used in the current marshalls, I put two 32/16uf 500v cans in my tube rectified '66 YBA1, and in my friends '70 YBA1 i will be putting two 50/50uf 500v cans to replace his original mallorys. The 32/16uf values used in mine correspond with the original cap values used in JTM45's. As far as experimenting with cap values, the higher value allows for more and tighter bass response, and a bit less compression when running the amp full crank.
So in mine, since i want to enhance the amps natural overdrive, i used the lower values. Someone using theirs for bass or a general cleaner sound should go for the higher values, maybe even a 100/100uf can for the first two stages in the power supply. Bear in mind that a tube rectified amp requires lower values in the first stages, as high filtering there places stress on the current capabilities of the tube rectifer.
For solid state diode rectification, do whatever you want.Tried to access the Traynor Amp Schematics but keep comming back with the
James F Wilson
i would also like to start with my first question. i'm pondering on purchasing a mark III. the only thing that makes me hesitate is something i had read in the news groups about the power tubes. i had read that since the power tubes run at such extremely high voltages(over 600 volts???) in the mark III amp that not all EL-34 type tubes will function properly. is this true? and if so, is there an easy mod to help with this incompatability issue or maybe, if some brand is readily available, which current production tubes are reccomended by all of you for sound and reliability.
i would like to thank all of you in advance for your responses and help,
jason
Dear JC,
Since you have a traynor web page, I thought maybe you've worked on one. That being the case, can you tell how you did it? Because I cant even get the booger out of the cabinet! Even with all screws out, it appears that the darn thing is locked in. Am I missing something very obvious?
Regards, Jon Milam
PS, I'm trying to quiet this thing down, scratchy pots, hiss. Are they prone to any problems in particular? ThanksJust wanted to drop a note to say what a great amp this is. I'm one of the few proud owners of a Custom Special head and 8 x 10 cabinet (Big B). Its massive. Its loud, and its proud. I haul this mother out to the large bars in town, No need to DI this baby, and haul a 4 x 10 Traynor cabinet to the smaller venues that I play in. Had a bit of a problem earlier this year when something in the head decided to blow up. I took the head to the local electronics wizard, who's name is Merlin, and had him fix the problem. It appears that there was aluminum shrapnel all over the place inside the head. Merlin who is British and knows this stuff like the back of his hand even found me some additional tubes, for future reference. It really helped to have the schematics for the head for reference purposes. I want to thank the people who made this possible. I'm looking for a backup YBA-3 head if anybody is interested in selling. Thanks again Rick in YellowknifeI just bought a '72 Bass Master head (4 inputs, s/n 211791). Looks to be in original condition, with the stock Mullard preamp tubes and mystery "Made in England" EL34's (dimpled top... Siemans?). Seems to work fine with the exception of scratchy/intermittent pots. What are the "Range Expander" controls supposed to do? Right now they don't do much of anything...
I understand that this circuit is pretty easy to mod to JTM or Bassman specs. My tech has suggested adding extra gain stages (bridging the inputs?) or possibly adding a master volume.
I'm wondering what mods any of you have made that have improved the sound/performance of your YBA-1.
I don't do a lot of hi-gain playing. My preferences run more to Fender-ish clean sounds to bluesy overdrive. I also have a stock Studio Mate that I positively love.
Thanks for the help.
Stevie Rob
Rick,
I have to agree with you on this. I've managed to find one of the Big B cabs on a recent excursion to Ontario(also another YBA-3, OLD Fender Style, in MINT condition).
The cab really needed some TLC, the top and bottom corners had become crumpled from the sheer weight of the cab and load ins/outs over time. I removed and replaced both sides(dont attempt unless you have a Table Saw and a Router!!!). Its in the process of getting new tolex/grill cloth, but all the speakers were good and the thing ROARS!!! I cant wait to finish the work and get it to a gig. This is truly the cab for the YBA-3.
Mike Levy
>Just wanted to drop a note to say what a great amp this is. I'm one of the few proud owners of a Custom Special head and 8 x 10 cabinet (Big B). Its massive. Its loud, and its proud. I haul this mother out to the large bars in town, No need to DI this baby, and haul a 4 x 10 Traynor cabinet to the smaller venues that I play in. Had a bit of a problem earlier this year when something in the head decided to blow up. I took the head to the local electronics wizard, who's name is Merlin, and had him fix the problem. It appears that there was aluminum shrapnel all over the place inside the head. Merlin who is British and knows this stuff like the back of his hand even found me some additional tubes, for future reference. It really helped to have the schematics for the head for reference purposes. I want to thank the people who made this possible. I'm looking for a backup YBA-3 head if anybody is interested in selling. Thanks again >Rick in YellowknifeThanks for the web site on Traynor amps. Great schematics. Can you tell me where I might find more info on circuit voltages and speaker load impedence etc.? Thanks again : Ed Drotar
The Mark 3 (YGL-3) is one of the low voltage Traynors - about 435V on the plates. It puts out about 80 watts before clipping - same as the early, best sounding Fender Twin Reverbs. You will get long tube life from just about any EL34's. Custom Special's at 540 volts are a bit more picky about tube quality.
Welcome to the list!
Eric
well everyone, thanks for the nice welcome to the list. also, thanks for the info on the Mark III tube situation. to be totally honest, i, like many other people, know absolutely nothing about the traynor amp line. that is, except for what i had recently read on a couple of web sites. so i have a few more questions about the Mark III that you guys might be able to help me with. so, HERE GOES!
what's the going rate in US funds for a Mark III combo in very good to excellent condition?
historically speaking, are there any consistent problems with the Mark III?(such as transformer trouble, reverb trouble, vibrato trouble, etc.)
what are the main differences between the Mark III's circuitry and that of the Fender Twin Reverb besides the obvious difference in output tube type?
are all of the Mark III's point to point hand wired amps?
are there any solid state components in a Mark III?
all of these questions pertain primarily to the 1975 model. 1975 is the production year of the Mark III i'm interested in buying.
thank again, JD
I have been hearing about two different models of the custom special, the 'flip top' and the one with bolts on the bottom and top.. Assuming I am correct thus far, my traynor has four screws on the top and the whole amp chassis slides out.. Am I just misunderstanding the other descriptions or is my amp different?
All the recent talk about biasing and new tupes/caps etc leads me to a question..
Should I think about replacing the most likely original tubes and caps in my amp? Will it make the sound that much better, or should I just wait till I need to replace them.. I'm not really worried about originality, so and suggested upgrades are welcome..
Also, I have been thinking about building a 2x10 monitor wedge style cab for my amp to replace the 8x10.. Has anyone tried any sort of 210 cab with their traynor? Any suggested speakers/impedances etc.
Thanks Dave Darling
If you prefer clean to bluesy overdrive tones, there's no need to add gain stages to the amp. You can both of these out of this amp stock. Bridging the channels is a common practice with any four input marshall-esque amp to get whatever desired mix of the normal and bright channels you prefer.
It is very close to the marshall JTM-45/fender bassman circuit. There are a few differences in some values of resistors and capacitors. It's not going to sound like a fender bassman, however, because it's not an open back combo with four ten inch alnico speakers, and it doesn't use a 12AY7 in the first preamp tube and it doens't have a tube rectifier.
I have one an earlier model YBA-1 and it sounds excellent. If you're not a "Do It Youself-er", I would just have it checked out by your tech over to make sure everything works OK. Maybe new tubes or filter caps if needed. The difference in the sound stock and modded to JTM-45 specs will not be that different.
The range expanders are the exact same thing as Mid-Range and Presence controls found on most marshall amps and the fender 5F6A/5F8A circuit (tweed bassman/twin). The "Low Range" Expander corresponds to the Mid-Range; and the high range Expander corresponds to the Presence control.
>I just bought a '72 Bass Master head (4 inputs, s/n 211791). Looks to be in original condition, with the stock Mullard preamp tubes and mystery "Made in England" EL34's (dimpled top... Siemans?). Seems to work fine with the exception of scratchy/intermittent pots. What are the "Range Expander" controls supposed to do? Right now they don't do much of anything...
>I understand that this circuit is pretty easy to mod to JTM or Bassman specs. My tech has suggested adding extra gain stages (bridging the inputs?) or possibly adding a master volume.
>I'm wondering what mods any of you have made that have improved the sound/performance of your YBA-1.
>I don't do a lot of hi-gain playing. My preferences run more to Fender-ish clean sounds to bluesy overdrive. I also have a stock Studio Mate that I positively love.
>Thanks for the help.
>Stevie Rob
If you prefer clean to bluesy overdrive tones, there's no need to add gain stages to the amp. You can both of these out of this amp stock. Bridging the channels is a common practice with any four input marshall-esque amp to get whatever desired mix of the normal and bright channels you prefer. ------------------
I heard that you had to change some capacitor or resistor values to make channel bridging safe. I've wondered about putting effects between the channels, to allow balancing between wet and dry or something, making a form of parallel effects loop, but I've not tried it due to the capacitor/resistor value worry.
From the owners Manual at JC's web page:
"...When using the Bassmaster you may have noticed that while playing through one channel the other channel's volume control affects the sound of the channel that you are using. This is a design feature and many interesting results may be obtained by experimenting with various settings."
I dont see why you cant use an a/b box, or something similar, to provide a switchable(or concurrent) input to both channels. One channel getting signal
with effects, say from stomp boxes or an effects processor, one channel dry?
Hey, Im just a bass player, though, still trying to figure out the high and low range expanders... ;-)
Mike Levy
i just found a YBA 3 custom special - i love it, and I'm curious about it - how many watts, and what year etc... if you know any of these things, that'd be super helpful
thanks dren
The Creepy Label Guy Vaccination Records Co. POB 20931 Oakland, CA 94611 http://www.vacrec.com
I've cleaned up the scan of this schematic (attached). I'd do more if you can give me any idea what the original said in a few places. If you can help, I'll the update in whatever form you nominate.
top left/the voltage under V1 12AX7A ?
centre/the voltages on either side of the 470ohm resistor in the phase splitter
lower centre/ the cap,reisitor and voltage in the bias supply
lower right/R29? resistor value?
right/the three voltages on the primary side of the output transformer.
I wanted a neat schematic because I'm playing around with an old EL34 PA but trying to replace the 100V line output transformer.
Regards
Great Traynor page! I just picked up a YGL3-Mk3 ... the schematics will come in handy! I noticed that the jpegs for the catalogue can't be found .. just thought I'd mention it ...
Brian.Reilkoff@usask.ca
Hello.
I found a YBA-1 in a pawn shop. The grill cloth is silver, has a filter choke between the PT & OT and has EL34's in it. The 1966 schematics show 7027's and a filter choke, but the 1972 schematics has no filter choke and EL34's. Is this a transition model, or has someone probably taken the 1966 model and installed EL34's? Would you have an idea of the year. It has been modified as there is a switche between the 2 volume knobs and another switch btw the Vol & treb knobs. Thanks for any info.
P.S. I also has a YBA-1A that was modified to a plexi, except for the power supply side ( choke & all ), BUT , it is very noisy. Has this been an observation of yours?
George Weaver
Very nice site. My first amp was a YGM-3 and I still have it. I learned great things using that amp with it either fully cranked(bass on zero), or down low getting one of the best clean tones ever. Over the years it got a little toasted and I have'nt used it in years. The volume is down and sounds a little fizzy when driven hard. Is there any collectability to these amps? Also, I found a Studio Mate amp with 4 eights at a music store that sounds killer. Is it worth $180? Or better yet, should I have another Traynor sitting around the house? I'm trying to save up for a $2000 amp so I can really be somebody! Without sounding redundant, I'd appreciate your input on these amps if you have the time. Thank you. Dave
P.S. I have yet to find ANY amp the does to me what my little Guitar Mate did for my teenage soul, and I've played quite a few since then.
Hi:
I found your site via Duncan's links.Ê I have a YBA-2B 'Bass Mate'.Ê (Just picked it up).Ê It looks like it uses 2 EL-84's.Ê I noticed your site doesn't have this schematic available joth@accglobal.net wrote:
I have some very basic questions about an amp that I picked awhile ago. The amp is a Traynor Reverb Master SC model # YRM-1SC. I would like to find out about biasing this amp, everything I have read points to two different types of bias , fixed vs cathode. Is there an easy ( tube amp newbie here ) way to tell which method this amp uses? If I use the transformer shunt method to check the bias do I hook the red meter wire to the wire coming from the transformer to the standby switch or were it joins the power filter cap? ( I believe this is the center tap of the power trans right?) Once I've measured the bias if it turns out to be low or high which resistors do I need to change?
Thanks in advance
Colin
WICKED! I used to crank a YBA-1 through every speaker cabinet I could blow up! I eventually traded it and some cash for a custom-colour Marshall top. I sure wish I could have kept it though! It was awesome! I do have a early 70's Guitar-Mate right now in my quirky collection. It rocks on 10!
Anyhow, what do you think about a picture gallery?
I have a schematic from my YBA somewhere; I'll scan it and e-mail it to you if you'd like. (I feel guilty about taking it from the amp!)
I will also pop open my Guitar-Mate & see if it still has its schematic inside. (I hope so!)
Thanks for providing the interest to maintain the archive!
RF
>I have some very basic questions about an amp that I picked awhile ago. The amp is a Traynor Reverb Master SC model # YRM-1SC. I would like to find out about biasing this amp, everything I have read points to two different types of bias , fixed vs cathode. Is there an easy ( tube amp newbie here ) way to tell which method this amp uses? If I use the transformer shunt method to check the bias do I hook the red meter wire to the wire coming from the transformer to the standby switch or were it joins the power filter cap? ( I believe this is the center tap of the power trans right?) Once I've measured the bias if it turns out to be low or high which resistors do I need to change?
I don't know much about this model, though there is interesting information about it at Daniel Cermak-Sassenrath's Velvet Black:
All Traynors using 7027s (early) or EL34s (later) are fixed rather than cathode bias (cathode bias is inefficient, and is therefore rarely used on amps over 25 watts or so, but it is very simple to implement so is popular on low power amps). You can find circuit diagrams of these models at the Traynor Amplifier Schematic Archive (part of Jean-Charles Maillet's vivaAnalog):
The Bassmaster and Voicemaster schematics I checked models have no provision for changing the bias but it is easy to add one. The bias is set by a resistor to ground in the bias supply. Substitute a lower value resistor and then put a pot in series with it - connect the wiper and one end of the pot to ground. You might want to add a balance control as well, to minimise hum, and account for tubes that don't match (or have two separate bias controls instead). Kevin O'Connor explains a variety of ways of connecting adjustable bias and balance in the reference below.
The easiest way to measure bias current (which is more meaningful than the bias voltage) is to simply insert a low value resistor between the cathode and ground. A 1 or 10 ohm resistor will have no effect on amp operation (it adds a tiny amount of cathode bias), but with a good digital voltmeter you will be able to measure the voltage drop across it and calculate the current. Current equals the voltage drop divided by the resistance (I+V/R) - if you use a one ohm resistor, and measure 30 millivolts, then the bias current will be 30 milliamps per tube. Typical values would be 30 to 40 milliamps. With higher plate voltages you have to use lower currentsThis method is easier and safer than messing with the output transformer leads.
Kevin O'Connor explains all this in much more detail in his books - particularly 'The Ultimate Tone Volume 2'. You can get this book and others from
Eric
hope to hear from you soon and have some happy hollidays ... peace to all, especially to the Iraqis and all who suffer for the sake of other's comfort ...
I fixed the reverb and never got the bias cicuit straightened out...I am designing and building min plexi's 2 5 20 and 40 watters so I gues if I was motivated I could do it own my own but wanted to see what others had done.....I have a couple of JPGS and waves of my stuff...
I think the resistor was replaced with one too small in the reverb but was considerinbg a transformer instead......
Greetings,
I have an old Custom Special head (160 watts, I believe), and it is far too loud for my needs. I was wondering if I could decrease the wattage by simply removing the outer pair of 6CA7's? Will this damage the output transformer? Should I make any mods to the circuit in conjunction with the tube removal? Thanks in advance.
Kirk
Hi Colin
fist of all, I'm not familiar with that amp nor have I seen the schematic but still it should be fairly easy to identify the main elements involved assuming there's nothing out of the ordinary happening here:
(i) locate the cathodes on the power tubes and see whether they go to an RC network (cathode biased) or to ground (direct biased) - use a short-meter between cathode and circuit-ground or chassis to make sure ... if this is a 7027A or EL34 amp then it is most likely direct biased - if it's cathode biased then we have to talk some more about this here situation ...
(ii) locate the bias circuit and compare it to that of other similar Traynor amps - also take a look at my drawing of a typical fixed-to-variable bias conversion in the Garnet section of my webpage (www.lynx.bc.ca/~jc) ... there's typically two resistors that form a resistor devider (fixed pot), the bottom one is replaced by a slightly larger value trim pot ... the more negative the bias voltage the more cooler the output tubes will run ... I like to beef up the existing bias filter cap (Farad and Voltage wise) and I also add a cap on the sweeper usually ... this way AC hum feedthrough in the output stage is reduced ...
For measuering in-circuit tube current I like to use the tranny shunt method, it's by far the most accurate and ellimnates all kinds of problems except perhaps for cardiac arrest - so a little care must be exercised, right ?! When the amp is live I take note of the B+ voltage by measuring it to ground of course; you need to find a good spot to land your meter probe that is far enough away from other metal in the amp ... now, the two power tube plate circuits connect directly to the windings of the primary side of the OT ... with a multimeter you want to short out each side of this winding, one at a time, with a multimeter set in mA current mode (200mA scale is good) and read the bypass current through the meter ... in a direct bias amp the total standby plate circuit dissipation can be well approximated by multiplying B+ voltage by measured current ... in push pull class-AB circuit standby power should lie anywhere between 50% and 80% of total allowed plate dissipation depending on the biasing techniques used ... once you find a bias level that sounds good take note of the currents by measuring them ... expect the side-to-side matching of bias currents to vary with bias voltage ...
In a quartet or octet amp I measure in-circuit tube current two tubes at a time, one per side (or else the tranny gets hot when operating single endedly - one tube only) ... I write the currents directly on the tubes with a sharpy pen and afterwards pair up the tubes together on each side so that the sum of idling currents match up as much as possible ... before hand I test all tubes on a transconductance tester and make sure they all lie in the same ballpark even though test conditions don't reflect those in the amp ... Setting bias depends on your ear, playing style and also impedance ratios established in the design of the OT ... in general the class-AB circuits found in Fender, Marshall, and Traytnor amps all react similar to the bias voltage settings ...
theory books mention that the highest power rating exhibited by a classs-AB circuit is achieved right at the bias threshold that aligns both sets of transfer curves, i.e. when the flat notch dissapears ... I've been told by a Marshall tech in L.A. that this has been Marshall's official biasing method they teach all their techs for years (who knows) ... in practice though, and you can see this with a scope, the notch doesn't quite dissapear completely at this point, even when the biased is cranked (higher idling current) ... past the flat-notch point there's still a remnance of a notch in the output waveform ...
Ken Fischer told me a couple of years ago about what can be perceived as a sweet spot just passed this flat-notchless point and he agreed that there's an optimum spot where (i) the output stage isn't biased too hot, (ii) the output stage maintains it's inherent smoothness if it already has the potential for it - especially Fenders - and (iii) the dynamics of the amp overall aren't as sloppy as when the amp is "threshold biased" ... food for thought ... ultimately you decide what you like - a gnarly amp may sound better biased hot but then again who knows ...
hope this helps
jc