There was a very interesting message today in the Bottom Line mailing list from Reid Kneeland
http://www.triodeel.com/
The following is a complete quote of Ned's comments on 7027s at:
http://www.triodeel.com/7027.htm
First: Read carefully. There are three parts to this page. The first deals with 7027 and 7027A (hereafter referred to as just 7027) in general. The second deals specifically with Ampeg guitar amplifiers. The third deals with amplifiers other than Ampegs that use 7027's. The notes for Ampegs should not be read as applying to other amplifiers with 7027's.
Q.So what is a 7027, anyway?
A.It's a US (possibly Japanese) 6L6-GC, sometimes with a taller bulb, with two extra pins. (pins 5 & 6 are connected together, as are pins 1 & 4). That's it. The published RCA specs claim higher ratings: but in practice this is not the case, at best it was a case of juggling numbers to claim more "horsepower" for sales purposes. (Remember those were the days when some amp makers were claiming 1000 watts peak power for 300 watt amps, too)
OK: I have a Sylvania 7027, 6L6-GC, and 6L6-WGB and a GE 7027 (made by GE,not an RCA relabel) and a GE 6L6-GC. The internal parts of the Sylvania 7027, the 6L6-GC, and the 6L6-WGB are exactly the same, except the 7027A and the 6L6-WGB have a grid cooling fin on the top. GE 7027 and 6L6-GC look exactly the same. IOW: all of them have the same effective plate dissipation. I put 'em in my nifty Avo valve checker, and with 400 plate volts, 300 screen volts, -30 grid volts..guess what, they all check out within 5 ma of average plate current for 6L6-GC. I pick up my handy RCA tube manual and look up the plate curves for 7027 and 6L6-GC: Guess what, they're identical! Put a pair of 7027 and a pair of 6L6-GC of the same make that test the same, in the same amp:you'll get about the same watts out.
Now, about them Ampegs...
Most likely you ran across this page after picking up an old Ampeg PortaFlex or V-series head or combo in a flea market or pawnshop. You liked the tone, in the case of the V amps, loved the cool tone controls, in the case of the Portaflex they look way cool, too.Then you looked under the hood, and ACCKKKK! The output tubes were 7027's! You called every guitar store & electronic shop in town: nobody has any.Someone said you might use 6550's, but they weren't sure..
Fear not, gentle reader, for the kind folks at Ampeg not onlyforesaw the problem and provided a simple solution, they made your Ampeg one of the most versatile amplifiers on Earth in regards to adapting to different output tubes!
Years before Mesa & Crate even thought about it. You can pop in *any* good matched pair of 6L6-GC, (except skinny Chinese & Russian ones), 7581, 5881, 6L6-WGB, or even 6550, KT88, or KT90, without modification,(Ampeg did not use the extra two pins on the 7027: so no rewiring necessary!) and by installing a simple jumper, both 6CA7 (fat bulb ) & EL34 (skinny bulb) tubes, too!
Q. But there's got to be a catch, right?
A. Yeah, one small but important one. Most Ampegs used what's known as a "capacitive-divider" bias scheme that has a tendency to get out of whack, which unbiases the tubes and can fry 'em..any of them, not just 7027s. There's only a few parts involved, just a few resistors, a coupla caps, and a diode, so it's best to just replace those parts on general principle. After you do this, or even if you don't, find the diagram (it should be inside the cabinet or stuck under the reverb tank..if not, get The Tube Amp Book, ignore the front half of the book, and go directly to the diagrams, and find it) and check the voltage (with the amp standby switch off) on pin 5 of the 7027 socket. It should be close to or a bit more negative (since the standby is off) than what's on the diagram. If you don't know what I am referring to, please take it to a tech..there are high voltages (often much higher than typical Fenders, Boogies, Marshalls, etc) in Ampegs, and it is no place for a novice to get a beginner course in amp troubleshooting..I'd say best to get one of those three tube Champs, Danos, Airlines, or Gibsons (there's others) if you want to take the Hard Knock University's Amp Repair 101 course.
Q.So where's the bias adjustment?
A. Ain't none.Some folks with the knowhow can install a bias control adjustment in an Ampeg,and it's a neat idea, since some folks might like the sound of tubes biased hotter (higher than the 25-35 ma you'll typically see), and tubes like 6550 can certainly handle a bit more current. But I would note that because of the high (over max published ratings) screen voltages, I'd play safe and not bias tubes for more than 75% of rated dissipation (plate current X plate voltage): eg: for a 6550, not more than 30 watts, for EL34 or 6L6, not more than 18..tho some 6L6 and large bulb 6CA7 might be able 25.
Q.What about EL34's?
A.Simple. Install a jumper between pins 1 & 8 on the tube socket. However, do NOT attempt to use 7027 after you've installed that jumper!
Q.Ned ,Im having a hard time swallowing this....these things are running 550V and up ! Since when does 6L6 handle this?
Since Ampegs were around ;-)....remember there's really no substantive difference between US made 7027A and US made 6L6-GC from the same mfr, other than pinout & cosmetics..and sometimes not cosmetics, either, look at 7027A GE vs. 6L6-GC GE. Some folks claim they can hear a diff, but as of yet all of the ones I've met were comparing different vintages or makes of tubes, which would make a diff even if we were talking just 6L6-GC.. Note in an Ampeg (at least the ones I've seen) the tubes are biased at maybe 20W per tube or less...if tubes are derated for dissipation, they can indeed be run higher than published voltage rating, sometimes quite a bit more. In our Ampeg VT-40, AKA "Uncle Ned's 6L6 Torture Chamber", which runs 585 nominal volts (our line voltage is a bit low, so it's really only about 570) on the plate, I recently had it cook away with a pair of Tesla 6L6-GC, which seem to be handle the strain quite well. IMA the Teslas are quite beefy looking & have red bases like the old 7581A. I've also put US made 6L6-GC of various flavors, Philips ECG 6L6-WGB, GE 7581, Sovtek EL34, Tesla EL34, Russkie & US 6550 in it successfully. I have not tried Russkie 5881..I'm still a bit leery of the idea, but several folks as well as Lord Valve say they work, so I'll try to blow them up next..
Q.So what kind of tubes can't I use?
A. Anything rank. Ampegs need good power tubes, they'll smoke poor quality output tubes, to wit:
1. Anything Chinese. That includes most new Mesa Boogie tubes, most of which are Chinese and often barely worth the glass they are encased in. I might note that ref the small (preamp tubes), I'd avoid Chinese tubes, too, I have yet to hear of one player that liked the tone of Chinese 12AX7 or 12AU7 tubes in an Ampeg. There's supposed to be a Sylvania(?) clone Chinese 12AX7/7025 which sound OK. No personal experience with that yet.
2.Ei Yugo *skinny bulb* EL34 (note the fat bulb ones, and KT90's, are fine) Those do not seem to have the 25W dissipation rating of good EL34. They can run away & glow red.
3.Sovtek EL34-G (skinny bulb). Same plate dissipation problem as Ei EL34 above. Be forewarned that some "Groove Tubes" EL 34 are actually EL34-G Sovtek, relabelled!
4.Old metal or "coke bottle bulb" 6L6-G or 6L6 (also 1614 or 1622). Those were designed for old 1950's/40's amps that ran less than 400V, and just weren't meant for Ampeg Madness.
5. Sovtek 5881 will work, but will produce considerably (20 to 30% less) max power than good Tesla, Svet, or US 6L6 or equivalent. I suppose they are OK if you want distortion at lower volumes.
6.Don't try 6V6-GT/GTA..unless you are willing to sacrifice them for research.. the voltages in Ampegs are way high and even at typical bias,will make way high plate dissipation in a 6V6-GT/GTa, likely smoke otherwise good & valuable NOS tubes.
Q. Any other suggestions ref output tubes?
A. If you can find Western Electric (or other US made) 350B, or real British KT66, those ought to work fine and have great tone, too. But those are expensive, if you can find any!
Q.I have a PortaFlex, any suggestions?
A. The V series amps have huge power transformers and will handle the extra load of 6550, EL34, KT90 or KT88, with little trouble. Lots of folks do use 6550 in place of 7027 in the B series (PortaFlex) amps with no problem, but I'd say you ought to check the power xfmr after it's been on a while, if it's getting way warm (like burns youir fingers), you should check the bias voltage/current, and consider going back to 6L6-GC or equivalent (5881, 6L6-WGB, 7581) if the transformer heating worries you. Fortunately, unlike some lesser quality makes, Ampeg overrated most of their transformers, so it's a rare day when they smoke a power xfmr.
Q. Are you sure about that 6550 thing in the bigger Ampegs?
A. Yep. Here's a couple of pertinent comments...
Lord Valve Stateth: Some of the later ones, the master-vol types made while Ampeg was still Ampeg, say right on the schematic that you can plug 6550s in with no mods at all. It's down in the really small print with the 'notes'. LV
bluemuse@aol.com (Bluemuse) wrote: Ampeg literature from the mid-70s for the VT-22 and VT-40 at least, say there was a Performance Kit available consisting of four 6550 output tubes and tube retainers, yielding 130 watts from the normally 100-watt VT-22, and 80 watts from the normally 60-watt VT-40. I don't know if there is anything else besides the tubes that was included in the kit.
Q.Ok, ENOUGH ABOUT THOSE DAMN AMPEGS! I have a (Musak, Bogen, etc) amp with 7027! Now what?
A. Simple. Check the socket and:
1. Move any connections on Pin 6 , to Pin 5.
2. Move any connections on Pin 1 , to Pin 4.
3. Install, either Svetlana 6L6-GC, Tesla 6L6-Gc, or good US made 6L6-GC, 7581, or late model 6L6-WGB/5881, and check idle current. Avoid using older 1950's style 5881,6L6-GB, 6L6-GA, 6L6-G, or metal 6L6/1614/1622, those do not have the requisite plate dissipation rating. DO NOT INSTALL METAL 6L6 in any socket labelled 7027 until you have confirmed that there in NO B+ connection to pin 1! Otherwise B+ will show up on the metal case, ouch!
Q.Sob! 6550 or EL 34 can't be installed in my Bogen/Musak/whatever, like in an Ampeg??
A. Maybe. I cannot confirm that power transformers in those units can handle the extra load. You can try installing the 6550, KT88, etc, in your amp, (remember for EL34, a jumper should be installed between pins 1 & 8) adjust bias for the same idle current (typically 40 or 50 ma) as a 7027, then checking B+/HT and filament voltage. If it's way down (say the fil line is reading less than 6 volts)...no go. Put the 6L6-GC's back in...I got an old YBA-1 BassMaster head this week and got a chance to see just what condition its in. Its the earlier of the two YBA-1 circuits (7027A's). It looks totally stock except for a replaced fuse holder. I was surprised to find it fired right up and sounded fine. The plate voltage is about 425V. The 7027As were very microphonic so I replaced them with a spare pair of Phillips 6L6WGBs I had laying around. I've read about people replacing them with EL34's, but I think I'm going to stick with the 6L6 variety in this amp.
I also bypassed the Channel I Volume pot with a 100 pf cap to have a tone option a little less bright than Channel II. I haven't had a chance to really crank it and hear how this thing sounds when pushed. I'm playing it thru a V4 4x12 bottom.Let me know if you get this..............
On the topic of 7027s, Ned Carlson's article didn't mention that Tesla has come out with a new production 7027a over the last 6 months or so...Based on the experiences and comments from the amp gurus that frequent the alt.guitar.amps newsgroup, the new tube is a respectable replacement for the original version. I think they can be had for around $100-120 for a matched quad.
Check NBS Electronics(Lord Valve's shop) online and request a price list. His prices are fair.
Mike Levy
Hello,
I just wanted to drop you a line, and thank you for your Traynor page.
I own a YGL-3A head, and a YGM-3.
A local music store has a "consignment shop", and has had a number of Traynor amps in the past. All I own came from there. They have had speaker cabinets, and solid state amps on occasion. I was able to pick up my amps quite inexpensively, because the people in the shop don't know what they are.
Currently they have an amp called a YBA-4 "Bass Master", which looks very much like my "Guitar Master". Do you know anything about this amp?
Also, is there any technical history of the Traynor amps, as far as specifications etc.? I know my YGL3 is "about 100 watts", and the YGM-3 is "about 20 watts" past that I'm in the dark.
Thanks again, and if I purchase the YBA-4, I'll send you a copy of the schematic, if it has one. Tim McCoy
This one's a keeper! I got a chance to really test this amp and boy does it smoke. And that's with the spare pair of small bottle 6L6WGBs that I put in. I bypassed the bass channel vol pot with a 100 pf cap and it gives a nice smoother sound to the brighter channel II. The bright channel II has a ballsy, snotty overdrive with the volume set at 4. The less bright channel I has a fat funky smooth slightly overdirven tone when set at the same volume. Its inspiring my to replace the CTS speakers in my 4x12 cabinet with some Webers.
Dave Rutherford
I'm not sure if your are the corect person to ask on this subject, but as a lover of the Traynor instrument amps, I'd like to know if Pete Traynor will talk about his designs. Pete seemed to always use a 12AX7 "long-tail" driver/inverter ala' Fender. This, plus low amounts of loop NFB probably contributed to the beautiful "liquid" midrange quality of the Traynor tube amps. I'd love to talk to Pete on this subject if he is willing and has the time.
Currently, I'm building a dual-mono push-pull parallel EL34 amp for m stereo using Hammond 1650T 1.9K p-p transformers. For the driver/inverter I've considered using a pentode 6BX6 diff-amp with transistor CCS. Then again, I may use a 12AX7 driver in hope to get that old "magic" midrange my Traynor amps.
Take Care
There was a very interesting message today in the Bottom Line mailing list from Reid Kneeland
http://www.triodeel.com/
The following is a complete quote of Ned's comments on 7027s at:
http://www.triodeel.com/7027.htm
First: Read carefully. There are three parts to this page. The first deals with 7027 and 7027A (hereafter referred to as just 7027) in general. The second deals specifically with Ampeg guitar amplifiers. The third deals with amplifiers other than Ampegs that use 7027's. The notes for Ampegs should not be read as applying to other amplifiers with 7027's.
Q.So what is a 7027, anyway?
A.It's a US (possibly Japanese) 6L6-GC, sometimes with a taller bulb, with two extra pins. (pins 5 & 6 are connected together, as are pins 1 & 4). That's it. The published RCA specs claim higher ratings: but in practice this is not the case, at best it was a case of juggling numbers to claim more "horsepower" for sales purposes. (Remember those were the days when some amp makers were claiming 1000 watts peak power for 300 watt amps, too)
OK: I have a Sylvania 7027, 6L6-GC, and 6L6-WGB and a GE 7027 (made by GE,not an RCA relabel) and a GE 6L6-GC. The internal parts of the Sylvania 7027, the 6L6-GC, and the 6L6-WGB are exactly the same, except the 7027A and the 6L6-WGB have a grid cooling fin on the top. GE 7027 and 6L6-GC look exactly the same. IOW: all of them have the same effective plate dissipation. I put 'em in my nifty Avo valve checker, and with 400 plate volts, 300 screen volts, -30 grid volts..guess what, they all check out within 5 ma of average plate current for 6L6-GC. I pick up my handy RCA tube manual and look up the plate curves for 7027 and 6L6-GC: Guess what, they're identical! Put a pair of 7027 and a pair of 6L6-GC of the same make that test the same, in the same amp:you'll get about the same watts out.
Now, about them Ampegs...
Most likely you ran across this page after picking up an old Ampeg PortaFlex or V-series head or combo in a flea market or pawnshop. You liked the tone, in the case of the V amps, loved the cool tone controls, in the case of the Portaflex they look way cool, too.Then you looked under the hood, and ACCKKKK! The output tubes were 7027's! You called every guitar store & electronic shop in town: nobody has any.Someone said you might use 6550's, but they weren't sure..
Fear not, gentle reader, for the kind folks at Ampeg not onlyforesaw the problem and provided a simple solution, they made your Ampeg one of the most versatile amplifiers on Earth in regards to adapting to different output tubes!
Years before Mesa & Crate even thought about it. You can pop in *any* good matched pair of 6L6-GC, (except skinny Chinese & Russian ones), 7581, 5881, 6L6-WGB, or even 6550, KT88, or KT90, without modification,(Ampeg did not use the extra two pins on the 7027: so no rewiring necessary!) and by installing a simple jumper, both 6CA7 (fat bulb ) & EL34 (skinny bulb) tubes, too!
Q. But there's got to be a catch, right?
A. Yeah, one small but important one. Most Ampegs used what's known as a "capacitive-divider" bias scheme that has a tendency to get out of whack, which unbiases the tubes and can fry 'em..any of them, not just 7027s. There's only a few parts involved, just a few resistors, a coupla caps, and a diode, so it's best to just replace those parts on general principle. After you do this, or even if you don't, find the diagram (it should be inside the cabinet or stuck under the reverb tank..if not, get The Tube Amp Book, ignore the front half of the book, and go directly to the diagrams, and find it) and check the voltage (with the amp standby switch off) on pin 5 of the 7027 socket. It should be close to or a bit more negative (since the standby is off) than what's on the diagram. If you don't know what I am referring to, please take it to a tech..there are high voltages (often much higher than typical Fenders, Boogies, Marshalls, etc) in Ampegs, and it is no place for a novice to get a beginner course in amp troubleshooting..I'd say best to get one of those three tube Champs, Danos, Airlines, or Gibsons (there's others) if you want to take the Hard Knock University's Amp Repair 101 course.
Q.So where's the bias adjustment?
A. Ain't none.Some folks with the knowhow can install a bias control adjustment in an Ampeg,and it's a neat idea, since some folks might like the sound of tubes biased hotter (higher than the 25-35 ma you'll typically see), and tubes like 6550 can certainly handle a bit more current. But I would note that because of the high (over max published ratings) screen voltages, I'd play safe and not bias tubes for more than 75% of rated dissipation (plate current X plate voltage): eg: for a 6550, not more than 30 watts, for EL34 or 6L6, not more than 18..tho some 6L6 and large bulb 6CA7 might be able 25.
Q.What about EL34's?
A.Simple. Install a jumper between pins 1 & 8 on the tube socket. However, do NOT attempt to use 7027 after you've installed that jumper!
Q.Ned ,Im having a hard time swallowing this....these things are running 550V and up ! Since when does 6L6 handle this?
Since Ampegs were around ;-)....remember there's really no substantive difference between US made 7027A and US made 6L6-GC from the same mfr, other than pinout & cosmetics..and sometimes not cosmetics, either, look at 7027A GE vs. 6L6-GC GE. Some folks claim they can hear a diff, but as of yet all of the ones I've met were comparing different vintages or makes of tubes, which would make a diff even if we were talking just 6L6-GC.. Note in an Ampeg (at least the ones I've seen) the tubes are biased at maybe 20W per tube or less...if tubes are derated for dissipation, they can indeed be run higher than published voltage rating, sometimes quite a bit more. In our Ampeg VT-40, AKA "Uncle Ned's 6L6 Torture Chamber", which runs 585 nominal volts (our line voltage is a bit low, so it's really only about 570) on the plate, I recently had it cook away with a pair of Tesla 6L6-GC, which seem to be handle the strain quite well. IMA the Teslas are quite beefy looking & have red bases like the old 7581A. I've also put US made 6L6-GC of various flavors, Philips ECG 6L6-WGB, GE 7581, Sovtek EL34, Tesla EL34, Russkie & US 6550 in it successfully. I have not tried Russkie 5881..I'm still a bit leery of the idea, but several folks as well as Lord Valve say they work, so I'll try to blow them up next..
Q.So what kind of tubes can't I use?
A. Anything rank. Ampegs need good power tubes, they'll smoke poor quality output tubes, to wit:
1. Anything Chinese. That includes most new Mesa Boogie tubes, most of which are Chinese and often barely worth the glass they are encased in. I might note that ref the small (preamp tubes), I'd avoid Chinese tubes, too, I have yet to hear of one player that liked the tone of Chinese 12AX7 or 12AU7 tubes in an Ampeg. There's supposed to be a Sylvania(?) clone Chinese 12AX7/7025 which sound OK. No personal experience with that yet.
2.Ei Yugo *skinny bulb* EL34 (note the fat bulb ones, and KT90's, are fine) Those do not seem to have the 25W dissipation rating of good EL34. They can run away & glow red.
3.Sovtek EL34-G (skinny bulb). Same plate dissipation problem as Ei EL34 above. Be forewarned that some "Groove Tubes" EL 34 are actually EL34-G Sovtek, relabelled!
4.Old metal or "coke bottle bulb" 6L6-G or 6L6 (also 1614 or 1622). Those were designed for old 1950's/40's amps that ran less than 400V, and just weren't meant for Ampeg Madness.
5. Sovtek 5881 will work, but will produce considerably (20 to 30% less) max power than good Tesla, Svet, or US 6L6 or equivalent. I suppose they are OK if you want distortion at lower volumes.
6.Don't try 6V6-GT/GTA..unless you are willing to sacrifice them for research.. the voltages in Ampegs are way high and even at typical bias,will make way high plate dissipation in a 6V6-GT/GTa, likely smoke otherwise good & valuable NOS tubes.
Q. Any other suggestions ref output tubes?
A. If you can find Western Electric (or other US made) 350B, or real British KT66, those ought to work fine and have great tone, too. But those are expensive, if you can find any!
Q.I have a PortaFlex, any suggestions?
A. The V series amps have huge power transformers and will handle the extra load of 6550, EL34, KT90 or KT88, with little trouble. Lots of folks do use 6550 in place of 7027 in the B series (PortaFlex) amps with no problem, but I'd say you ought to check the power xfmr after it's been on a while, if it's getting way warm (like burns youir fingers), you should check the bias voltage/current, and consider going back to 6L6-GC or equivalent (5881, 6L6-WGB, 7581) if the transformer heating worries you. Fortunately, unlike some lesser quality makes, Ampeg overrated most of their transformers, so it's a rare day when they smoke a power xfmr.
Q. Are you sure about that 6550 thing in the bigger Ampegs?
A. Yep. Here's a couple of pertinent comments...
Lord Valve Stateth: Some of the later ones, the master-vol types made while Ampeg was still Ampeg, say right on the schematic that you can plug 6550s in with no mods at all. It's down in the really small print with the 'notes'. LV
bluemuse@aol.com (Bluemuse) wrote: Ampeg literature from the mid-70s for the VT-22 and VT-40 at least, say there was a Performance Kit available consisting of four 6550 output tubes and tube retainers, yielding 130 watts from the normally 100-watt VT-22, and 80 watts from the normally 60-watt VT-40. I don't know if there is anything else besides the tubes that was included in the kit.
Q.Ok, ENOUGH ABOUT THOSE DAMN AMPEGS! I have a (Musak, Bogen, etc) amp with 7027! Now what?
A. Simple. Check the socket and:
1. Move any connections on Pin 6 , to Pin 5.
2. Move any connections on Pin 1 , to Pin 4.
3. Install, either Svetlana 6L6-GC, Tesla 6L6-Gc, or good US made 6L6-GC, 7581, or late model 6L6-WGB/5881, and check idle current. Avoid using older 1950's style 5881,6L6-GB, 6L6-GA, 6L6-G, or metal 6L6/1614/1622, those do not have the requisite plate dissipation rating. DO NOT INSTALL METAL 6L6 in any socket labelled 7027 until you have confirmed that there in NO B+ connection to pin 1! Otherwise B+ will show up on the metal case, ouch!
Q.Sob! 6550 or EL 34 can't be installed in my Bogen/Musak/whatever, like in an Ampeg??
A. Maybe. I cannot confirm that power transformers in those units can handle the extra load. You can try installing the 6550, KT88, etc, in your amp, (remember for EL34, a jumper should be installed between pins 1 & 8) adjust bias for the same idle current (typically 40 or 50 ma) as a 7027, then checking B+/HT and filament voltage. If it's way down (say the fil line is reading less than 6 volts)...no go. Put the 6L6-GC's back in...I got an old YBA-1 BassMaster head this week and got a chance to see just what condition its in. Its the earlier of the two YBA-1 circuits (7027A's). It looks totally stock except for a replaced fuse holder. I was surprised to find it fired right up and sounded fine. The plate voltage is about 425V. The 7027As were very microphonic so I replaced them with a spare pair of Phillips 6L6WGBs I had laying around. I've read about people replacing them with EL34's, but I think I'm going to stick with the 6L6 variety in this amp.
I also bypassed the Channel I Volume pot with a 100 pf cap to have a tone option a little less bright than Channel II. I haven't had a chance to really crank it and hear how this thing sounds when pushed. I'm playing it thru a V4 4x12 bottom.Let me know if you get this..............
On the topic of 7027s, Ned Carlson's article didn't mention that Tesla has come out with a new production 7027a over the last 6 months or so...Based on the experiences and comments from the amp gurus that frequent the alt.guitar.amps newsgroup, the new tube is a respectable replacement for the original version. I think they can be had for around $100-120 for a matched quad.
Check NBS Electronics(Lord Valve's shop) online and request a price list. His prices are fair.
Mike Levy